Peter Schiff Show
Posted by WARREN MOSLER on November 16th, 2011
Warren will be on the Peter Schiff Show tomorrow, 11/17/2011, at 10:33 am EST.
Find your local station here, to listen live.
Or stream here.
Otherwise this loop will play for 24 hours after the conclusion of the show.
Topic:
>
> As for topics, I thought we could talk about your piece on inflation failing to manifest
> despite the dire warnings.
>
November 16th, 2011 at 7:11 pm
O man! This is excellent!
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Robert Kelly Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 9:03 am
@wh10,
From Shiff’s website-
“$15,000,000,000,000 ain’t nothin but a number! Today’s guest is Warren Mosler, economist & founder of Mosler Automotive, on taxpayers’ GM albatross and why inflation hawks need to just chillax and let pols keep spending.
Peter is looking forward to your calls on politics, finance, and the economy.”
Hopefully he’ll let Warren complete his sentences! Break a leg Warren.
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WARREN MOSLER Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 10:55 am
thanks for the head’s up!
the larger answer to the GM thing is the govt has a responsibility not to let its policies choke off demand, but that’s another story
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wh10 Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 11:19 am
@Robert Kelly,
I like how he leaves out Mosler’s storied history as an investor.
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Robert Kelly Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 9:48 pm
@wh10,
Listening to this interview reminded me of an old joke about an ice cream shop.
Peter- I’d like to some chocolate ice cream.
Warren- I’m sorry sir. We are out of chocolate.
Peter- OK then, I’ll have a chocolate sundae.
Warren- Like I said sir, we are out of chocolate.
Peter- Alright, how about a chocolate shake.
Warren- We are out of chocolate sir.
Peter- Just give me a chocolate cone then.
Warren- Sir, how do you spell straw as in strawberry?
Peter- S T R A W
Warren- Very good. How do you spell van as in vanilla?
Peter- V A N
Warren- Outstanding. How do you spell f**k as in chocolate?
Peter- There is no f**k in chocolate.
Warren- Exactly. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell you.
November 16th, 2011 at 7:18 pm
This is good even though I was hoping for visual. :)
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November 16th, 2011 at 7:43 pm
I’m more excited about this that the Superbowl! Give ‘em hell Warren!
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November 16th, 2011 at 7:57 pm
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2011/11/austrian-monetary-mental-mysteries-for-what-i-hope-is-the-one-last-time.html
Good short piece debunking Austrian monetary theory.
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November 16th, 2011 at 8:33 pm
Cool. Can’t wait!
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November 16th, 2011 at 9:27 pm
Warren,
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2011/10/on-my-adventure-on-peter-schiff-show.html
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2011/10/how-peter-schiff-show-interview-really.html
If he interrupts you and keeps talking, it’s because he hit the mute button and nobody can hear you.
He’s going to dominate the conversation and control it and make you sound like a fool.
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WARREN MOSLER Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 10:50 am
pay back for our last conversation in front of the Independent Party in Ct? After that exchange they asked me to run on their ticket.
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November 16th, 2011 at 10:14 pm
here we GO!!!
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November 17th, 2011 at 1:34 am
Schiff has a marketing machine to protect.
Nonetheless, I think Warren will be prepared; I think he’s been down this road before.
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November 17th, 2011 at 4:13 am
>
> As for topics, I thought we could talk about your piece on inflation failing to manifest
> despite the dire warnings.
>
I bet he says his forecast was accurate because the government does not accurately report inflation + if you measure inflation by looking at price of gold or oil then he was right.
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November 17th, 2011 at 8:30 am
Schiff has no idea what he’s done. You should repeat your wager.
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November 17th, 2011 at 11:07 am
Live stream here:
http://tunein.com/program/?ProgramId=332013&StationId=141833
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Kristjan Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 11:23 am
@Joe C,
I am in Europe, is the Eastern time 10:23 now?
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Joe C Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 11:30 am
@Kristjan,
Here comes Warren -
Time now 10:30 EST
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Kristjan Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 12:03 pm
@Joe C,
Thanks´,
Schiff is just like any regular person going by his intuition. There is nothing you can do with him
November 17th, 2011 at 11:31 am
@Kristjan, Yes.
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November 17th, 2011 at 11:36 am
Schiff thought St. Croix was in Florida!
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Joe C Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 11:42 am
@Matt Franko,
Ya, and crossed state and federal income tax.
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Matt Franko Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 11:47 am
@Joe C, Schiff is really gold selling in the commercials….
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Matt Franko Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 11:59 am
@Matt Franko, If Schiff agrees with Warren then Schiff is out of the gold selling business. Hence, Schiff cannot agree with Warren.
Matt Franko Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 12:09 pm
@Matt Franko, Now he is misrepresenting in the post interview broadcast….
wh10 Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 12:04 pm
@Matt Franko,
Hilarious if he follows through on his interest to move his business there haha.
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November 17th, 2011 at 11:47 am
Peter’s mic is like 4x as loud.
I like Warren’s term of “you’ve strung a lot of things together.”
Peter just blathers the same paranoid rhetoric that any laymen would subscribe to.
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November 17th, 2011 at 12:00 pm
Ugh… that guy is a real ass. By controlling the mic and the volume he steamrolled the whole interview.
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Joe C Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 12:04 pm
@Broll The American,
Shorter Warren: Reduced taxes will help spur the demand side of GDP formula.
Shorter Schiff: I agree with you Warren. Eliminate all taxes and reduce government to the police force in my CT neighborhood. Anything else is inflationary. Thanks for being on the show today!
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WARREN MOSLER Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 12:06 pm
yes, but pretty obviously to any listener.
and he failed to engage on the idea of unspent income causing the need for lower taxes which I made pretty clear.
he also agreed that there is no solvency issue for govt, and also the trade issue, followed by contradictory statements.
And me pushing for the tax cut for working people and him fighting it I don’t think his listeners much liked that
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RyanVMarkov Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 12:23 pm
It is like the movie “The Others”.
Our opponents, 99% of human population today, are dead and don’t even realize it. The problem is that the dead don’t even know it and can’t see the live – we live in parallel worlds. In our case we need a nice medium to deliver the message and bring the dead back to our world.
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RyanVMarkov Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 12:36 pm
Oh forgot – Peter Schiff is veery dead – no medium on earth will ever establish contact with him.
November 17th, 2011 at 12:02 pm
Warren,
Nice job. He’s a tough one, with the muting and cutting you off.
The problem was essentially that Schiff thinks inflation is inevitable if the govt spends without destroying money via taxes. He agrees the govt can spend more without defaulting, but he is adamant this would be inflationary.
So I wish you guys could have spent more time discussing *why* inflation isn’t a threat going forward and under your plan.
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Broll The American Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 12:08 pm
@wh10, This is the huge hurdle anytime you try to get someone to wrap their minds around MMT. Its like people can accept and will embrace depression and poverty, but a little but of inflation is the most horrific thing ever.
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Joe C Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 12:08 pm
@wh10,
The guy is a dissembling pro. Between the interruptions, commercial breaks, and mischarecterizations, Schiff keeps people off balance and his audience confused. This allows him to be the subject matter expert at all times.
Warren did a good job of trying to build from the ground up, but the format was simply not a good one. Someone over at Mike Norman’s place mentioned an RSA Animate piece – now that could go viral!
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Greg Marquez Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 12:52 pm
@Joe C, Yes, Yes, Yes exactly. I’ve been wanting to suggest RSA animate for Stephanie Kelton’s talk the one with the horrible video. Another thought would be Smart Bubble Society that does a similar job with animations.
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November 17th, 2011 at 12:10 pm
He is still talking about It now on air.
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November 17th, 2011 at 12:13 pm
Wow, what a waste of Mosler’s and my own time.
Schiff has one of the most closed minds in the business and uses his microphone to prevent any notion that challenges his preconceptions.
The only sliver of a silver lining was his admitting that a monetarily sovereign nation owing its debt in its own currency cannot default. Since the debt ceiling silliness, that has at least become conventional wisdom.
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November 17th, 2011 at 12:14 pm
After Warren went off the air, Peter called Warren’s comments “unintelligent.” He called it an “interesting conversation” really sarcastically.
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November 17th, 2011 at 12:18 pm
Schiff is a total xxxxxxxx, period. It’s unbelievable to me how a clown like this can achieve such success. Only in America.
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Oliver Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 10:41 am
@Mike Norman,
As a non-American, I can only agree. He has the oratory skills of a 12 year old, glue sniffing street child. Anything before and after the interview, which was comparatively civil, the jingles, the voice, everything, is inane and puerile beyond belief.
On a more sober note: First, well done Warren!
Second, I think there’s general room for improvement for describing the output gap from the supply side, as in all that would be produced if we had more money and from the monetary side, as in the space between a balanced budget and the onset of inflation, as well as for describing the concept of deficits themselves. Not that I think Schiff gives a tinker’s cuss about supply or demand, as long as his dollar stash remains shiny and valuable – but anyway.
As Vickrey put it back in ’96:
If General Motors, AT&T, and individual households had been required to balance their budgets in the manner being applied to the Federal government, there would be no corporate bonds, no mortgages, no bank loans, and many fewer automobiles, telephones, and houses.
One could expand from there to the crowding out argument:
If you take out a loan to buy a house or if a company issues debt to finance production, does that mean your neighbour can’t buy a house or another company can’t produce goods? Of course not, otherwise we’d have to ban that sort of thing! And neither do government deficits. But,as opposed to households or companies, governments have the obligation to make sure that there’s enough money around to keep everyone at work and production at capacity. That won’t happen if the deficit is too small. And in fact, with a Fed that controls interest rates, government created money, as opposed to bank credit or corporate papers, could even be interest free! That’s what we should be demanding, not some arbitrary size of a balance sheet!
Or sumpn’ like that…
Btw., did you know that Schiff is originally a German (Austrian?) name that means ‘ship’ but, as a noun derived from the verb ‘schiffen’ can also mean ‘rain’ or ‘piss’? Punny, I find.
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WARREN MOSLER Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 2:13 pm
Thanks, and didn’t know that!
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November 17th, 2011 at 12:30 pm
Schiff is an entertainer. One trick pony that is rude, egotistical and predictable. He has a business to run that needs a certain perspective pushed.
I would only debate someone like that with a moderator that could turn off his mic when he becomes obnoxious.
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November 17th, 2011 at 12:41 pm
Interesting that he’s having problems with his phones but the callers that can get through are all supporters…
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November 17th, 2011 at 12:42 pm
I only caught the last 10 minutes with Schiff and then his post interview critique. I agree with Mike Norman.
From what I heard Schiff beat Warren about the head and shoulders with the “printing prosperity” argument.
Anyway, I don’t know if you’ve seen this already, but a clever music video recently came out that hits a few MMT concepts. I think it points out that people are desperately looking for answers. Too bad they won’t find it with Schiff.
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Greg Marquez Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 1:00 pm
@Ming33, That was pretty good… And stocks go up but the jobs dissappear…
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November 17th, 2011 at 12:43 pm
Hey, anyone got the audio recording of Warren v Schiff? I missed it.
Help! Post a link! Thanks.
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Matt Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 12:52 pm
@Charles Hayden,
The live show is just about to end but there is a link above that says it will replay on a loop for the next 24 hours.
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Matt Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 1:20 pm
@Matt,
Looks like the loop isn’t working. I see that he has some interviews from earlier in the week up so maybe we’ll see Warren’s up soon on the streaming page.
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November 17th, 2011 at 4:16 pm
Ok just listened to the replay of the interview. Great job Warren!
It’s clear Schiff did almost zero preperation for the interview as he tried to imply that the grounds for supporting for the elimination of FICA taxes also support the elimination of ALL taxation. Of course 5 minutes reading Warren’s arguments would have made clear that SOME taxes are necessary to create demand for the currency. So either zero prep work, or he read it and decided to argue in bad faith.
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WARREN MOSLER Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 4:31 pm
thanks!
I also suspect his audience was very interested in the idea that the govt is over taxing us due to unspent income,
and that his refusal to engage didn’t go unnoticed. Remember, Tea stands for ‘taxed enough already’
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Mario Reply:
November 17th, 2011 at 4:41 pm
@Matt,
how did you get to it? I couldn’t make it to the live show and I’m trying to get onto the loop but it’s not letting me…it keeps looping me to buy a subscription!!! Dear God no!!! LOL
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November 17th, 2011 at 7:07 pm
Always enjoy hearing WM speak.
So, if we were to “pay off” the debt and an equal amount taxes were imposed as an Austrian would do, would there be any money left in the system? how much + or -?
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WARREN MOSLER Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 8:16 am
net financial assets in the economy would be 0
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Art Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 10:51 am
@WARREN MOSLER,
“net financial assets in the economy would be 0″
So would employment in the above ground economy, if we allowed it to go that far.
http://symmetrycapital.net/index.php/blog/2011/08/voters-get-your-heads-around-this-asap/
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November 17th, 2011 at 8:41 pm
Warren this was really, really well done. You handled him MASTERFULLY. Egg all over his face. GREAT JOB!!!
This was really, really good and very informative. Yes it was so funny that even with more importing he STILL sees only inflation!!! It’s EVERYWHERE MAN!!!
Reminds me of Lady Macbeth from said play. Her famous line regarding seeing spots of blood on her hands the king she murdered that are not actually there: “Out damned spot! Out, I say!”
Doct. You see, her eyes are open.
Gen. Ay, but their sense is shut.
Doct. What is it she does now? Look, how she rubs her hands.
Gen. It is an accustomed action with her, to seem thus washing her hands. I have known her to continue in this a quarter of an hour.
Lady M. Yet here’s a spot.
Doct. Hark! she speaks. I will set down what comes from her, to satisfy my remembrance the more strongly.
Lady M. Out, damned spot! out, I say! One; two: why, then, ’tis time to do ’t. Hell is murky! Fie, my lord, fie!
Act V. Scene 1. Lines 24-37
sounds like Peter Schiff to me!!! LOL ;)
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November 17th, 2011 at 8:49 pm
I’ll say one thing Warren…you are a very respectful man. One of the most respectful people I’ve probably ever met. If I could be half the man you are in that regard, I’d consider myself accomplished. I just get so enraged and upset when I see people choose will-full ignorance. I’m working on it, step by step. I’m sure that’s one reason why you have had a good career in finance and keeping your cool and wits about you. Having a place in St. Croix might also do wonders on my relaxing too I’m sure!!! LOL
one day….one day….
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November 17th, 2011 at 8:58 pm
1.Could private citizens offset the drag on aggregate demand caused
by tax deferred retirement accounts by borrowing an equal amount
from their local banks to buy second homes,cars, etc.
2. I think the main hurdle for people to overcome with MMT
is the concern that government will grow in size without the
check of the idea that spending has to be financed by taxes.
Although , I accept all the tenets of MMT, I share that concern-
from a liberty concern not a solvency concern.
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Mario Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 6:06 am
@JohnE,
#1. could happen for some time but probably not sustainable…especially these days
#2. perhaps. however remember spending is controlled by congress so if anything did get passed it would need to go through that “process.” Not sure if that’s good, bad, or incredibly frightening news these days but there you go!
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WARREN MOSLER Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 8:22 am
1. yes. borrowing is the reverse of savings, so consumer borrowing ‘counts’ as a reduction in nominal savings.
2. either you believe in representative govt. by an informed electorate or you don’t?
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JohnE Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 2:53 pm
@WARREN MOSLER, I am not a
true believer in direct democracy and neither were our
founding fathers. That’s why they setup a constitutional
republic with appointed judiciary and indirect election
of the president. But, yes the legislature appropriates funds.
Yes, if the electorate was informed. Heck, even our elites
aren’t informed as your experience trying to explain fiat monetary functioning demonstrates as well
as any recent phenomenon. As Churchill is often attributed:
‘America always does the right thing, AFTER it has exhausted all other possibilities’. But at least we believe in the
empirical method.
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Art Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 10:59 am
@JohnE,
1. Has worked at times, eg, 1990s thru ~2006. But all currency users face a limit in how much financed consumption they can do. The monopoly supplier of net financial assets still has to fill its role, just as gold mines had to do under a gold std.
2. The check is inflation tolerance. Also, consider the many ways in which a federal govt deficit can be allocated (tax cuts, safety nets, infrastructure, public and social investments, etc). If the major parties could get their heads around modern money, they could fight over the stuff that really matters.
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November 17th, 2011 at 10:25 pm
I finally listened to the show.
I think the only thing Warren might have achieved is convincing Schiff to move his business to St Croix to pay less taxes.
Give him a t-shirt to welcome him.
Next time you are interviewed by someone like Schiff, mention the website as many times as you can. Maybe some people would be curious enough to check it because he didn’t let you say much.
Did anyone try to call during the show?
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November 17th, 2011 at 10:47 pm
I listened too. Peter can’t keep his mouth shut for two seconds, like Chris Matthews. He finally agrees that there’s no solvency and that the issue is inflation; but then shuts down the discussion so you can’t explain why his inference that there will be inflation is false. Great try Warren! Wonderful patience. Don’t know if I could have done that in your shoes. I’m sure I would have insulted the putz!
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WARREN MOSLER Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 8:29 am
thanks,
I’d guess his regular listeners would have liked to have know more about the bit about how govt. policy is causing a restriction of our natural prosperity by over taxing us for the size govt we have. And that the reason there is the unspent income that allows taxes to be lower than spending is the govt sponsored tax advantaged savings laws, etc.
I don’t think they liked him shutting down discussion of what seemed like a legit reason to cut our FICA taxes that hurt most of them.
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MamMoTh Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 1:38 pm
@WARREN MOSLER,
I don’t think they liked him shutting down discussion
I am quite sure that’s what they like and why they keep listening to him.
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Art Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 11:01 am
@LetsGetItDone,
Putz??? He’s a visionary. Says so right on his site.
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Robert Kelly Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 12:48 pm
@Art,
I guess if your whole business is the promotion of shiny metal you have to cut off any information contrary to that position. Schiff is certainly good at that.
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Art Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 7:07 pm
@Robert Kelly,
Promoting shiny metal? Or Peter Schiff? ;)
LetsGetItDone Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 1:13 pm
@Art, Definitely, the pioneer of putzdom!
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November 18th, 2011 at 11:15 am
Best line of the interview?
Schiff to Warren: “Compose your thoughts…”
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Art Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 7:10 pm
I found Pete pretty civil for the first half of the interview. But in the second half — you know, after Warren had composed his thoughts :) — sounded like he was in full-on legacy protection mode.
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November 18th, 2011 at 1:27 pm
There’s only one man who could talk over Peter Schiff…
http://traderscrucible.com/2011/11/17/instant-classic-shooting-up-the-charts/
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Robert Kelly Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 1:55 pm
@beowulf,
Between you and Cullen and these videos I’m not getting any work done. Good thing it’s Friday.
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November 18th, 2011 at 2:35 pm
forgive me, warren, but that was excruciatingly painful to listen to.
though i can understand why you would want to do it, i just don’t think it’s worth it to go on that fool’s show ever again.
i seriously think the most effective way to counter this guy and all the rest is to answer him (or them) separately, and not at a face-to-face debate, cuz all they’ll do is shout you down and take up all the time.
hopefully, you or some of the knowledgeable ones here will make youtube videos in response to each of his “vlog” posts. that, i think, is the most effective way to reach his audience. just make the titles of your posts similar to his, that way, when they search for him, your posts will come up in the search, as well.
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WARREN MOSLER Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 2:38 pm
Agreed! I thought one time was fine, but not again.
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November 18th, 2011 at 2:52 pm
@WARREN MOSLER, I am not a
true believer in direct democracy and neither were our
founding fathers. That’s why they setup a constitutional
republic with appointed judiciary and indirect election
of the president. But, yes the legislature appropriates funds.
Yes, if the electorate was informed. Heck, even our elites
aren’t informed as your experience trying to explain fiat monetary functioning demonstrates as well
as any recent phenomenon. As Churchill is often attributed:
‘America always does the right thing, AFTER it has exhausted all other possibilities’. But at least we believe in the
empirical method.
Reply
November 18th, 2011 at 6:36 pm
I live in Australia and listen to a number of US podcasts to get an idea of what’s going on over there. This is the first time I have heard of Warren Mosler.
In my opinion Peter Schiff didn’t handle this interview well. He was underprepared and constantly talked over Warren. Ha, even I know St Croix is not in Florida!
Hence I was motivated to seek out Warren’s ideas for myself. Thank you Peter Schiff!
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beowulf Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 7:55 pm
@RobP,
Rob, one of my Warren’s Modern Monetary Theory sidekicks is Professor Bill Mitchell. You should check out his blog. Besides Bill’s many insightful posts on the US economy, he offers the added value of also frequently commenting on the Australian economy (Bill teaches in New South Wales).
http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/
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Sergei Reply:
November 19th, 2011 at 5:29 am
@beowulf,
“he offers the added value of also frequently commenting on the Australian economy”
offtopic … Does anybody here have a good link to an in English speaking resource about Swedish economy?
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beowulf Reply:
November 19th, 2011 at 10:36 pm
@Sergei,
No sir, But I do have a good link to English speaking Swedish resource about movies based on John Grisham novels.
http://damianpenny.wordpress.com/2011/03/30/why-arent-we-at-home-with-our-mammals-watching-razeball/
WARREN MOSLER Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 9:03 pm
good to hear it, thanks!
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November 18th, 2011 at 6:56 pm
Is this a true statement?
Once upon a time the entire amount of cash in America was only (for example sake) 100 million dollars. If we had a balanced budget since then, that means that the total amount of money TODAY in the dollar zone would be 100 million dollars. As the population increased there would be less and less money per person, all asset prices would continually deflate, all mortgages would continually be underwater from the moment you bought them, add in a trade deficit and ALL money would be completely sucked out of the system until nothing was left…
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Art Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 7:30 pm
@DAB,
Some of it.
“Once upon a time the entire amount of cash in America was only (for example sake) 100 million dollars. If we had a balanced budget since then, ”
Assumes a soft currency where the govt is the monopoly provider of net financial assets, AND no credit transactions.
“that means that the total amount of money TODAY in the dollar zone would be 100 million dollars.”
The “dollar zone” and trade deficit stuff needlessly complicate things, I think. Let’s simplify and assume we’re talking about a closed economy (like the world, for example) with a single currency.
“As the population increased there would be less and less money per person,”
Correct, if there are no credit transactions.
“all asset prices would continually deflate,”
Except money, of course. :) This assumes a growing economy (which a growing population should make possible) and that the unit of account is never re-calibrated (e.g., yesterday’s 1,000 is equivalent to today’s 1,000,000; like saying a CM is now an inch in real terms).
“all mortgages would continually be underwater from the moment you bought them,”
Yes, as long as the nominal contract is not indexed to the real value of the currency, and ignoring local market effects (it’s possible that some would be above water).
“add in a trade deficit and ALL money would be completely sucked out of the system until nothing was left…”
Assumes net exports are always negative, but at some point, external money holders would probably buy something from you.
Similar dynamics would occur elsewhere, i.e., money being “sucked out” is inherently destabilizing. At some point, policy would push in the other direction.
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DAB Reply:
November 18th, 2011 at 7:44 pm
@Art,
Thank you for the help, yes those were my assumptions just to make a particular point.
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Unforgiven Reply:
November 19th, 2011 at 1:18 pm
@Art,
“As the population increased there would be less and less money per person,”
Art: Correct, if there are no credit transactions.
It’s my understanding that credit doesn’t add NFA’s to the system, as that money has to be paid back (plus interest and fees). It just stirs the water in the pot, it doesn’t add more water.
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AK Reply:
November 19th, 2011 at 9:53 pm
@Unforgiven,
Net financial assets aren’t created via credit. However in times of credit expansion, the money supply would increase since more deposits are being created (via loan creating) than deposits destroyed (via loan payback).
DAB Reply:
November 20th, 2011 at 11:23 am
@Unforgiven,
That’s the point I was trying to make to someone else… Of course you could have everyone run up their credit cards. You would have to because that would be all that was left to do! :)
WARREN MOSLER Reply:
November 20th, 2011 at 12:53 pm
(and don’t forget to define ‘money’ for purposes of this discussion)
Unforgiven Reply:
November 20th, 2011 at 2:52 am
@Art,
I get your point.
This introduces quite a few variables. Dear me.
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November 18th, 2011 at 8:03 pm
Peter Schiff needs to learn this:
http://money4nothingchicks4free.wordpress.com/2011/03/23/dont-look-at-me-the-american-banker-said-it/
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November 18th, 2011 at 9:19 pm
Honestly, Warren, what is the point? The medium you’re working with allows you simply to preach to the choir and not to enlighten anyone who is unfamiliar with the basics of MMT: there simply is not enough time, all the more so when faced with a person like Schiff.
If you must, for some reason, do such interviews, I really recommend that you forward them a short list of ground rules: no interruptions between making points, would be the first and cardinal rule. The second rule would be: first read my “7 Innocent Frauds.”
The third one would be: Have you read my “7 Innocent Frauds?” Yes? If so: do you understand that the government does not need tax dollars to pay for anything? Do you understand the basic accounting identity of this system: that government deficits equal private surplus totals to the penny? Do you understand that a fiat system is an entirely different system from a convertible non-floating system? Do you understand that the dollar is essentially an accounting unit? Do you understand what is the cause of inflation in such a system? Do you understand what the actual function of taxes is in such a system? Etc. for each of the 7 frauds. If they don’t understand these basic questions, they certainly will not become enlightened within the parameters of a radio interview. I think an enormous amount of time is wasted answering people on this and other blogs who simply refuse to read the basic material and want it spoon fed, when they should be told: first read and reflect on this, then come back if you have questions. Part of our spoiled and entitled mentality.
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WARREN MOSLER Reply:
November 19th, 2011 at 9:53 am
appreciated, thanks
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November 19th, 2011 at 9:46 pm
Just listened to the show Warren – I actually really enjoyed your style of engaging with Schiff. I notice that you have subtly shifted your approach when speaking to non-MMTers – you’re now attempting to find common ground and slowly coax people over by showing that MMT is compatible with their government size preference.
I think this is a more successful approach than the more aggressive stance that others on this site have asked you to take. Although I appreciate that MMTers feel significant frustration that others can’t “get it”, we all need to realise one supremely important point: aggressively exposing people’s ignorance is often a surefire strategy for failure, regardless of how correct you are. That is an unfortuante fact of human life.
A more successful strategy – which I feel you are employing currently – is starting from some carefully phrased, less controversial tenets of MMT that can be explained in 30 seconds or less. Once people agree with those, the debate can be shifted, slowly, to more relevant points.
Perhaps I am too much of an optimist, but I feel encouraged that the debate has shifted away from solvency and now to inflation. A bout of disinflation/deflation in the U.S would provide some really good ammunition for MMT; insolvency and inflation arguments against MMT would have much less weight.
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Mario Reply:
November 20th, 2011 at 3:10 am
@AK,
well said AK.
I am working myself to be less of a richard when talking to people that refuse to get this stuff. It definitely does help and make a difference.
I agree that the S&P downgrade laid the smack down on all inflationistas and has done nothing but promote MMT significantly. I personally think (though have no evidence) that much of Wall Street is secretly looking now at MMT and or MMT’s ideas….b/c they do NOT want to get burned in bonds again!! This is a good thing to be sure.
It appears inevitable for this stuff to be widespread knowledge….the question becomes how much more pain do we need to go through before getting to the gains?
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WARREN MOSLER Reply:
November 20th, 2011 at 1:03 pm
thanks, agreed, and good demo of the style you suggest!
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Janie Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 4:37 am
@AK,
Since I’m such a newbie to all this, and have read Mosler’s books three times in order to get it, I have an approach with others that (1) reflects my dawning, and (2) cracks the conversational egg without.
I make it historical, by saying that I was thinking pre-1972, when the the economy was post-1972. I was thinking the economy should be managed as if we are still on the gold standard, when the US dollar is a non-convertible currency that can’t be exchanged for any metal. Then the currency user/issuer argument, and I go from there.
I’m lucky in that I’m blessed with little knowledge of all this.
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WARREN MOSLER Reply:
November 22nd, 2011 at 5:11 am
former fed chairman greenspan once said he attributed the success of the fed to acting as if we were on the gold standard.
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November 20th, 2011 at 3:13 am
Another fascinating irony with the current strand of quasi-libertarian, gold-bug, inflationistas is that they are both desperately afraid of inflation yet also desperately in favor of less regulation….meaning specifically they do not want to repeal the CFM Act of 2000 and help to stop significantly the speculation in commodities. It’s just insane how some of these issues stack up to me…literally insane.
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WARREN MOSLER Reply:
November 20th, 2011 at 1:10 pm
which is one reason they can’t find a credible representative for the presidential race
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November 20th, 2011 at 5:24 am
@Mario,
Probably because they mis-timed the crash and didn’t pull their profits offshore before the tsunami smashed them against the AIG building. I’m sure they’ll get it right next time….
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