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	<title>Comments on: Payroll Tax Holiday and aid to states have a good bang for the buck</title>
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	<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2010/03/04/payroll-tax-holiday-and-aid-to-states-have-a-good-bang-for-the-buck/</link>
	<description>St Croix, United States Virgin Islands</description>
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		<title>By: Symmetry Capital Management, LLC &#187; Real Stimulus: David Frum, meet Warren Mosler</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2010/03/04/payroll-tax-holiday-and-aid-to-states-have-a-good-bang-for-the-buck/comment-page-1/#comment-22886</link>
		<dc:creator>Symmetry Capital Management, LLC &#187; Real Stimulus: David Frum, meet Warren Mosler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 16:07:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moslereconomics.com/?p=9896#comment-22886</guid>
		<description>[...] by Republican strategist David Frum, in which he advocates &#8212; what else? &#8212; a one year payroll tax holiday! This is a potentially powerful form of fiscal stimulus that would finally provide direct [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] by Republican strategist David Frum, in which he advocates &#8212; what else? &#8212; a one year payroll tax holiday! This is a potentially powerful form of fiscal stimulus that would finally provide direct [...]</p>
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		<title>By: RSJ</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2010/03/04/payroll-tax-holiday-and-aid-to-states-have-a-good-bang-for-the-buck/comment-page-1/#comment-17247</link>
		<dc:creator>RSJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:33:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moslereconomics.com/?p=9896#comment-17247</guid>
		<description>Exactly -- it is all about income distribution. 

That is why we are demand constrained. There is no shortage of money, and neither is there a shortage of credit. There is a shortage of high paying jobs for the bulk of the nation, and excess of pay for a small group. 

As a result, we can deficit spend until the moon is blue, and still not get inflation. We can spend a trillion dollars of stimulus, and end up with high corporate profits but no gains to employment -- because the money will not find its way into increasing living standards for the bulk of the nation. 

That is the problem with aggregating the entire private sector into one unit, and declaring that it has a desire to net save. There is no aggregate desire to do anything, only the competing desires of different people within the private sector, and when the economic payoffs are fundamentally misaligned, then that is what the government should fix, rather than just supply the private sector overall with more income, and keeping the current misalignments going a bit longer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly &#8212; it is all about income distribution. </p>
<p>That is why we are demand constrained. There is no shortage of money, and neither is there a shortage of credit. There is a shortage of high paying jobs for the bulk of the nation, and excess of pay for a small group. </p>
<p>As a result, we can deficit spend until the moon is blue, and still not get inflation. We can spend a trillion dollars of stimulus, and end up with high corporate profits but no gains to employment &#8212; because the money will not find its way into increasing living standards for the bulk of the nation. </p>
<p>That is the problem with aggregating the entire private sector into one unit, and declaring that it has a desire to net save. There is no aggregate desire to do anything, only the competing desires of different people within the private sector, and when the economic payoffs are fundamentally misaligned, then that is what the government should fix, rather than just supply the private sector overall with more income, and keeping the current misalignments going a bit longer.</p>
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		<title>By: RSJ</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2010/03/04/payroll-tax-holiday-and-aid-to-states-have-a-good-bang-for-the-buck/comment-page-1/#comment-17246</link>
		<dc:creator>RSJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moslereconomics.com/?p=9896#comment-17246</guid>
		<description>No, the market sets prices, and the government sets the rules of who has an advantage in the market, as well as *influencing*, but not controlling, the overall supply of money, which is primarily endogenous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, the market sets prices, and the government sets the rules of who has an advantage in the market, as well as *influencing*, but not controlling, the overall supply of money, which is primarily endogenous.</p>
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		<title>By: RSJ</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2010/03/04/payroll-tax-holiday-and-aid-to-states-have-a-good-bang-for-the-buck/comment-page-1/#comment-17245</link>
		<dc:creator>RSJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:20:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moslereconomics.com/?p=9896#comment-17245</guid>
		<description>&quot;the answer is to adjust the consumption of real resources.&quot;

No -- that is *not* the purpose of progressive taxation. Counter-cyclical fiscal policy addresses wild consumption swings, not progressive tax rates. 

An overall progressive tax-rate is to counter income accumulation. 

The private sector, left to its own devices, constantly promotes income concentration due to the asymmetrical distribution of power. It is generally the case that you can afford to pay someone less than they need to earn in order for demand as a whole to be maintained. So left to itself, this trend is only counteracted with deflations and depressions, in which top incomes rapidly shrink and median incomes rise (due to deflation). 

We would like to control income concentration (and the corresponding decline in quality of life that results from shrinking median incomes) in a less severe way than allowing depressions and deflations. 

And for this reason, we have progressive taxation -- to change the incentive structure in such a way as to impose additional costs to the private sector for supplying very high incomes to top earners, and tilt the playing field in favor of median earners, to counteract the natural tilt the playing field has in favor of top earners.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;the answer is to adjust the consumption of real resources.&#8221;</p>
<p>No &#8212; that is *not* the purpose of progressive taxation. Counter-cyclical fiscal policy addresses wild consumption swings, not progressive tax rates. </p>
<p>An overall progressive tax-rate is to counter income accumulation. </p>
<p>The private sector, left to its own devices, constantly promotes income concentration due to the asymmetrical distribution of power. It is generally the case that you can afford to pay someone less than they need to earn in order for demand as a whole to be maintained. So left to itself, this trend is only counteracted with deflations and depressions, in which top incomes rapidly shrink and median incomes rise (due to deflation). </p>
<p>We would like to control income concentration (and the corresponding decline in quality of life that results from shrinking median incomes) in a less severe way than allowing depressions and deflations. </p>
<p>And for this reason, we have progressive taxation &#8212; to change the incentive structure in such a way as to impose additional costs to the private sector for supplying very high incomes to top earners, and tilt the playing field in favor of median earners, to counteract the natural tilt the playing field has in favor of top earners.</p>
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		<title>By: beowulf</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2010/03/04/payroll-tax-holiday-and-aid-to-states-have-a-good-bang-for-the-buck/comment-page-1/#comment-17241</link>
		<dc:creator>beowulf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moslereconomics.com/?p=9896#comment-17241</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;people in that income group have a relatively low marginal propensity to consume to begin with, making reducing consumption problematic though not impossible, if you are willing to go to the 70%+ marginal tax rates and enforce it...&lt;/i&gt;

Robert H. Frank has pointed to precisely this point in advocating his own tax reform idea:

&lt;i&gt;As taxable consumption rises, the tax rate on additional consumption would also rise. With a progressive income tax, marginal tax rates cannot rise beyond a certain threshold without threatening incentives to save and invest. Under a progressive consumption tax, however, higher marginal tax rates actually strengthen those incentives.&lt;/i&gt;
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/business/07view.html?pagewanted=print

Looking through Frank&#039;s column archive, he&#039;s a sharp guy and seems like a good fellow (for a deficit dove). :o)
http://www.robert-h-frank.com/timescolumn.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>people in that income group have a relatively low marginal propensity to consume to begin with, making reducing consumption problematic though not impossible, if you are willing to go to the 70%+ marginal tax rates and enforce it&#8230;</i></p>
<p>Robert H. Frank has pointed to precisely this point in advocating his own tax reform idea:</p>
<p><i>As taxable consumption rises, the tax rate on additional consumption would also rise. With a progressive income tax, marginal tax rates cannot rise beyond a certain threshold without threatening incentives to save and invest. Under a progressive consumption tax, however, higher marginal tax rates actually strengthen those incentives.</i><br />
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/business/07view.html?pagewanted=print" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/business/07view.html?pagewanted=print</a></p>
<p>Looking through Frank&#8217;s column archive, he&#8217;s a sharp guy and seems like a good fellow (for a deficit dove). :o)<br />
<a href="http://www.robert-h-frank.com/timescolumn.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.robert-h-frank.com/timescolumn.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: warren mosler</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2010/03/04/payroll-tax-holiday-and-aid-to-states-have-a-good-bang-for-the-buck/comment-page-1/#comment-17229</link>
		<dc:creator>warren mosler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 02:30:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moslereconomics.com/?p=9896#comment-17229</guid>
		<description>at the end of the day the price level is a function of prices paid by govt.  

your causes of inflation imply a govt that only buys at mkt prices continuously etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>at the end of the day the price level is a function of prices paid by govt.  </p>
<p>your causes of inflation imply a govt that only buys at mkt prices continuously etc.</p>
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		<title>By: beowulf</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2010/03/04/payroll-tax-holiday-and-aid-to-states-have-a-good-bang-for-the-buck/comment-page-1/#comment-17215</link>
		<dc:creator>beowulf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:37:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moslereconomics.com/?p=9896#comment-17215</guid>
		<description>More to the point its easier to reform what already exists than to create something new. 

Besides the constitutional impediments of a federal RE tax that I&#039;ve already mentioned, you can&#039;t imagine the political pushback that state governments will offer if Uncle Sam steps on their two big tax revenue sources-- property and sales.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More to the point its easier to reform what already exists than to create something new. </p>
<p>Besides the constitutional impediments of a federal RE tax that I&#8217;ve already mentioned, you can&#8217;t imagine the political pushback that state governments will offer if Uncle Sam steps on their two big tax revenue sources&#8211; property and sales.</p>
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		<title>By: winterspeak</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2010/03/04/payroll-tax-holiday-and-aid-to-states-have-a-good-bang-for-the-buck/comment-page-1/#comment-17212</link>
		<dc:creator>winterspeak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 18:52:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moslereconomics.com/?p=9896#comment-17212</guid>
		<description>OK.

I don&#039;t believe I&#039;ve ever seen the rate be adjusted downward in the face of strong property appreciation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t believe I&#8217;ve ever seen the rate be adjusted downward in the face of strong property appreciation.</p>
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		<title>By: vipul</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2010/03/04/payroll-tax-holiday-and-aid-to-states-have-a-good-bang-for-the-buck/comment-page-1/#comment-17210</link>
		<dc:creator>vipul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 18:28:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moslereconomics.com/?p=9896#comment-17210</guid>
		<description>In Ohio, there&#039;s a rule that says that property tax levies are supposed to be for a fixed dollar figure, so if the local schools want to collect 1 million dollars, they&#039;ll set a rate for 1 million.  If property values rise, the rate is reduced automatically by law.  At least that&#039;s my understanding.  But that&#039;s not inherent to the nature of the tax, that&#039;s just a rule they made up.  Sort of like California&#039;s proposition 13 which prevents reassessment of value until you sell the house, I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Ohio, there&#8217;s a rule that says that property tax levies are supposed to be for a fixed dollar figure, so if the local schools want to collect 1 million dollars, they&#8217;ll set a rate for 1 million.  If property values rise, the rate is reduced automatically by law.  At least that&#8217;s my understanding.  But that&#8217;s not inherent to the nature of the tax, that&#8217;s just a rule they made up.  Sort of like California&#8217;s proposition 13 which prevents reassessment of value until you sell the house, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: JKH</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2010/03/04/payroll-tax-holiday-and-aid-to-states-have-a-good-bang-for-the-buck/comment-page-1/#comment-17209</link>
		<dc:creator>JKH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 17:33:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://moslereconomics.com/?p=9896#comment-17209</guid>
		<description>Mine certainly don&#039;t work that way. Taxes depend on the assessment and the rate. There&#039;s nothing preventing a downward adjustment in rate in the face of an outsized increase in assessment due to a strong real estate market. Revenue depends on what the government needs/wants. Rate is then a plug depending on assessment and government revenue requirements. Revenue is not necessarily a linear function of assessment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mine certainly don&#8217;t work that way. Taxes depend on the assessment and the rate. There&#8217;s nothing preventing a downward adjustment in rate in the face of an outsized increase in assessment due to a strong real estate market. Revenue depends on what the government needs/wants. Rate is then a plug depending on assessment and government revenue requirements. Revenue is not necessarily a linear function of assessment.</p>
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