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	<title>Comments on: Innocent Frauds (draft in progress) (full) (Updated March 16)</title>
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	<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2009/03/19/innocent-frauds-draft-in-progress-full-updated-march-16/</link>
	<description>St Croix, United States Virgin Islands</description>
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		<title>By: Scott Fullwiler</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2009/03/19/innocent-frauds-draft-in-progress-full-updated-march-16/comment-page-2/#comment-7126</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Fullwiler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 23:39:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moslereconomics.com/?p=7352#comment-7126</guid>
		<description>Hi.  Mostly right.  You forgot to mention that US exports will increase.  Also, net saving of US consumers is set by fiscal deficits, too, so it&#039;s ambiguous whether US consumers are worse off.  They could be better off if the deficit raises aggregate real consumption.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi.  Mostly right.  You forgot to mention that US exports will increase.  Also, net saving of US consumers is set by fiscal deficits, too, so it&#8217;s ambiguous whether US consumers are worse off.  They could be better off if the deficit raises aggregate real consumption.</p>
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		<title>By: backgammon</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2009/03/19/innocent-frauds-draft-in-progress-full-updated-march-16/comment-page-2/#comment-7114</link>
		<dc:creator>backgammon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moslereconomics.com/?p=7352#comment-7114</guid>
		<description>Warren, you said:

&quot;And domestic credit creation-the bank loan- has funded the Chinese desire to hold a $US deposit at the bank.

Whereâ€™s the â€˜foreign capital?â€™  There isnâ€™t any!  The entire notion is inapplicable.  

Instead, they are dependent on our domestic credit creation process to fund their desire to save $US financial assets.&quot;


Question:

There seems to be a lot of debate at the moment about whether or not the time will come when the Chinese and the other BRICs will stop wanting to invest in $ financial assets. What happens then? Presumably the $ will fall in value (whatever that means) and the US consumer will be worse off? Inflation will rise? US consumers&#039; $ savings will decline in real value (purchasing power) and therefore US consumers will be worse off?

It can&#039;t all be as simple as changing entries in a giant monetary spreadsheet?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Warren, you said:</p>
<p>&#8220;And domestic credit creation-the bank loan- has funded the Chinese desire to hold a $US deposit at the bank.</p>
<p>Whereâ€™s the â€˜foreign capital?â€™  There isnâ€™t any!  The entire notion is inapplicable.  </p>
<p>Instead, they are dependent on our domestic credit creation process to fund their desire to save $US financial assets.&#8221;</p>
<p>Question:</p>
<p>There seems to be a lot of debate at the moment about whether or not the time will come when the Chinese and the other BRICs will stop wanting to invest in $ financial assets. What happens then? Presumably the $ will fall in value (whatever that means) and the US consumer will be worse off? Inflation will rise? US consumers&#8217; $ savings will decline in real value (purchasing power) and therefore US consumers will be worse off?</p>
<p>It can&#8217;t all be as simple as changing entries in a giant monetary spreadsheet?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Benson</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2009/03/19/innocent-frauds-draft-in-progress-full-updated-march-16/comment-page-1/#comment-5469</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 09:08:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moslereconomics.com/?p=7352#comment-5469</guid>
		<description>Zanon in previous monetary experiments, the reason for wrestling control away from a single point went along the lines below - seems not much has changed in 200 years - what I don&#039;t understand is that many pundits said Kerry lost to bush because he talked about the &quot;global test&quot; but today it seems america has had a shift and loves to be globalists - yesterday CNBC ran a story on the cars driven by Obama&#039;s economic team - Orzag, geithner, Summers - etc - most had a foreign automobile - Summers a 1995 Mazda mx3?! and some of the others with a toyota highlander or honda odyssey.

(from Wikipedia) The Second Bank of the United States was authorized for a twenty year period during James Madison&#039;s tenure in 1816. As President, Jackson worked to rescind the bank&#039;s federal charter. In Jackson&#039;s veto message (written by George Bancroft), the bank needed to be abolished because: 
It concentrated the nation&#039;s financial strength in a single institution.
It exposed the government to control by foreign interests.
It served mainly to make the rich richer.
It exercised too much control over members of Congress.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zanon in previous monetary experiments, the reason for wrestling control away from a single point went along the lines below &#8211; seems not much has changed in 200 years &#8211; what I don&#8217;t understand is that many pundits said Kerry lost to bush because he talked about the &#8220;global test&#8221; but today it seems america has had a shift and loves to be globalists &#8211; yesterday CNBC ran a story on the cars driven by Obama&#8217;s economic team &#8211; Orzag, geithner, Summers &#8211; etc &#8211; most had a foreign automobile &#8211; Summers a 1995 Mazda mx3?! and some of the others with a toyota highlander or honda odyssey.</p>
<p>(from Wikipedia) The Second Bank of the United States was authorized for a twenty year period during James Madison&#8217;s tenure in 1816. As President, Jackson worked to rescind the bank&#8217;s federal charter. In Jackson&#8217;s veto message (written by George Bancroft), the bank needed to be abolished because:<br />
It concentrated the nation&#8217;s financial strength in a single institution.<br />
It exposed the government to control by foreign interests.<br />
It served mainly to make the rich richer.<br />
It exercised too much control over members of Congress.</p>
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		<title>By: zanon</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2009/03/19/innocent-frauds-draft-in-progress-full-updated-march-16/comment-page-1/#comment-5465</link>
		<dc:creator>zanon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 04:18:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>thanks warren</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks warren</p>
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		<title>By: warren mosler</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2009/03/19/innocent-frauds-draft-in-progress-full-updated-march-16/comment-page-1/#comment-5464</link>
		<dc:creator>warren mosler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:50:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moslereconomics.com/?p=7352#comment-5464</guid>
		<description>it&#039;s part of soft currency economics</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>it&#8217;s part of soft currency economics</p>
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		<title>By: zanon</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2009/03/19/innocent-frauds-draft-in-progress-full-updated-march-16/comment-page-1/#comment-5463</link>
		<dc:creator>zanon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:53:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moslereconomics.com/?p=7352#comment-5463</guid>
		<description>Question for the group: Is there a &quot;required reading&quot; that details how Investment creates Savings?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Question for the group: Is there a &#8220;required reading&#8221; that details how Investment creates Savings?</p>
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		<title>By: zanon</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2009/03/19/innocent-frauds-draft-in-progress-full-updated-march-16/comment-page-1/#comment-5461</link>
		<dc:creator>zanon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 15:24:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moslereconomics.com/?p=7352#comment-5461</guid>
		<description>SCOTT: I know. *My* point is that savings desire can change. If there is no savings desire for CalScrip, then the state of California&#039;s T has to equal its G. This limits its ability to raise G without also raising T.

MR MAGOO: I hear what you are saying. Just pointing out that any engineering solution needs to also acknowledge the fact that you will have a King. How do you keep a decentralized solution decentralized? Didn&#039;t work for the US. Didn&#039;t work for China. Isn&#039;t working for Europe. Not saying there&#039;s any easy answer, just pointing out reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SCOTT: I know. *My* point is that savings desire can change. If there is no savings desire for CalScrip, then the state of California&#8217;s T has to equal its G. This limits its ability to raise G without also raising T.</p>
<p>MR MAGOO: I hear what you are saying. Just pointing out that any engineering solution needs to also acknowledge the fact that you will have a King. How do you keep a decentralized solution decentralized? Didn&#8217;t work for the US. Didn&#8217;t work for China. Isn&#8217;t working for Europe. Not saying there&#8217;s any easy answer, just pointing out reality.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Fullwiler</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2009/03/19/innocent-frauds-draft-in-progress-full-updated-march-16/comment-page-1/#comment-5458</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Fullwiler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 11:48:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moslereconomics.com/?p=7352#comment-5458</guid>
		<description>Z . . . true, of course.  But the point is to get to full employment, not necessarily to get people to save.  Saving by definition just means you need a bigger deficit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Z . . . true, of course.  But the point is to get to full employment, not necessarily to get people to save.  Saving by definition just means you need a bigger deficit.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Magoo</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2009/03/19/innocent-frauds-draft-in-progress-full-updated-march-16/comment-page-1/#comment-5457</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Magoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 10:06:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moslereconomics.com/?p=7352#comment-5457</guid>
		<description>As IBM was firing thousands of American workers last week, the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office published Big Blue&#039;s application to copyright a computerized system that calculates how to offshore jobs while maximizing government tax breaks.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As IBM was firing thousands of American workers last week, the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office published Big Blue&#8217;s application to copyright a computerized system that calculates how to offshore jobs while maximizing government tax breaks.</p>
<p><a href="http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Magoo</title>
		<link>http://moslereconomics.com/2009/03/19/innocent-frauds-draft-in-progress-full-updated-march-16/comment-page-1/#comment-5456</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Magoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:33:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.moslereconomics.com/?p=7352#comment-5456</guid>
		<description>&quot;And regarding taxes, the govt writes the tax code to direct behavior.&quot;

You once told me we have to deal with the cards dealt us, but then I think why would a guy make ANOTEHR supercar when there are already so many ferrari, corvette, viper, bughatti, lamborghini, porsche, etc etc already.  Did the founding fathers accept the cards dealt to them before fleeing europe?  Did martin luther king?  The tax code is such a massive leviathon, no &quot;government&quot; has written it - that seems to infer there was a structure and guiding process instead just a mish mash of self contradicting obscurity, and no &quot;government&quot; official understands it all.  The mere complexity of it makes it nonsense.

&quot;Same with the VI program. It was implemented to try to help the economy here. It was also aggressively promoted by the US govt.&quot;

It is so beneficial Warren, like you and I am sure so many others, I am motivated to move there and get my own piece of that tax savings.

&quot;Zanon: ItÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s good to be King, or at least good friends with the King. That will never change, but we can hope for a King who knows how to run his country, no?&quot;

I used to have long debates with my poli sci professor who wanted to convince me the best form of government was benevolent dictator.  The KING is limited by his nueral connections in his brain Zanon, it is a HARD PHYSICAL limit, that is why you design things in such a way where they are efficient at the local distributed level and not require a central point of control.  Our whole system of government has not scaled has the population levels have grown.  100 senators, a few supereme court justices and 1 president cannot effectively represent 350 million citizens, not even close.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And regarding taxes, the govt writes the tax code to direct behavior.&#8221;</p>
<p>You once told me we have to deal with the cards dealt us, but then I think why would a guy make ANOTEHR supercar when there are already so many ferrari, corvette, viper, bughatti, lamborghini, porsche, etc etc already.  Did the founding fathers accept the cards dealt to them before fleeing europe?  Did martin luther king?  The tax code is such a massive leviathon, no &#8220;government&#8221; has written it &#8211; that seems to infer there was a structure and guiding process instead just a mish mash of self contradicting obscurity, and no &#8220;government&#8221; official understands it all.  The mere complexity of it makes it nonsense.</p>
<p>&#8220;Same with the VI program. It was implemented to try to help the economy here. It was also aggressively promoted by the US govt.&#8221;</p>
<p>It is so beneficial Warren, like you and I am sure so many others, I am motivated to move there and get my own piece of that tax savings.</p>
<p>&#8220;Zanon: ItÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s good to be King, or at least good friends with the King. That will never change, but we can hope for a King who knows how to run his country, no?&#8221;</p>
<p>I used to have long debates with my poli sci professor who wanted to convince me the best form of government was benevolent dictator.  The KING is limited by his nueral connections in his brain Zanon, it is a HARD PHYSICAL limit, that is why you design things in such a way where they are efficient at the local distributed level and not require a central point of control.  Our whole system of government has not scaled has the population levels have grown.  100 senators, a few supereme court justices and 1 president cannot effectively represent 350 million citizens, not even close.</p>
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